Milwaukee native Tamara Saviano has an impressive career as a documenter of American music, both as a producer of award-winning albums dedicated to the songs of Stephen Foster, Kris Kristofferson and Guy Clark as well as her biography of the latter, Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life and Music of Guy Clark, published by Texas A&M University in 2016.
Since then, Saviano used the material from that biography as the basis for her film, Without Getting Caught or Killed, co-directed with Paul Whitfield and written with Bart Knaggs. The documentary explores the music and ties between Clark, his wife Susanna and their friend, acclaimed cult songwriter Townes Van Zandt. Lone Star-reared and called “the king of the Texas troubadours” by the New York Times when he died in 2016, Clark left behind much covered songs such as “Desperados Waiting for a Train” and “Baby I’m Yours.” It’s only appropriate that Without Getting Caught or Killed will debut at SXSW on March 18 before screening worldwide beginning March 23.
I caught up with Taviano with some questions.
What drew you to the music of Guy Clark?
I was 14 years old, living in St. Francis, Wisconsin, when I heard Guy’s first album Old No. 1. My dad and his friend Rudy listened to records together on Saturday mornings. My dad was into soul music and Rudy was into country and folk. Rudy brought Old No. 1 over one Saturday. They put the record on the turntable and the first track, “Rita Ballou,” came blaring out of the speaker. I was hooked immediately. “She’s a rawhide rope and velvet mixture, walkin’ talkin’ Texas texture, High-timin’ barroom fixture kind of a girl…” I mean, c’mon! Those lyrics just grabbed me and haven’t let go since. It was the beginning of my love affair with both folk music and Texas.
How did you interest Sissy Spacek in the project? Is she also a fan of Guy?
The Sissy connection is still unbelievable. There is a cosmic connection that I’m sure Susanna Clark orchestrated from the great beyond. Paul (my husband and co-director) and I were having breakfast one morning at our favorite little pancake spot in Nashville and suddenly Sissy Spacek’s face popped in my head and I yelled out loud “Sissy Spacek is Susanna!”
We already had another narrator in mind so this was out of the blue. Paul looked at me like I was crazy and said: “What are you talking about?” I told him that I just knew that Sissy Spacek had to be our Susanna. I didn’t know that much about Sissy, other than I loved her in “Coal Miner’s Daughter” and other films. I bought Sissy’s autobiography that same day and read it immediately. In that book I learned that Sissy grew up in Quitman, Texas, just 100 miles away from where Susanna grew up in Atlanta, Texas. Then I read that after Sissy won her Oscar for Coal Miner’s Daughter she came to Nashville to record an album for Warner Brothers. Rodney Crowell produced that album. I called Rodney. Rodney said, “Not only did I produce Sissy’s album, but Sissy recorded a Susanna Clark song for the album.” What?
And then, icing on the cake, the day Sissy came in the studio to narrate the film, she told us a story about being 15 years old in Quitman and her best friend’s cousin was a folk singer from Houston. Sissy couldn’t remember the name of the cousin, but the cousin had come through Quitman on a folk tour with a church and taught Sissy a guitar picking technique. Sissy said that after learning that guitar from her friend’s cousin, that’s what made her decide to go to New York to pursue a music career (which never happened). Anyhow, the cousin who gave Sissy guitar lessons was Guy Clark’s first wife Susan Spaw. We didn’t find that out until later. Bizarre. And yes, Sissy is a Guy fan and also a fan of many of Guy’s friends including Rodney, Lyle Lovett, Steve Earle, and Emmylou Harris.
Did Guy Clark consider himself a folk singer, a country singer or were these categories irrelevant to him?
He considered himself a folk singer. On the advice of his record labels and managers he did go off in a country direction for a time, but it never suited him. You’ll learn more about that in the film.
What influence did he have on the next generation—people like Steve Earle, Rodney Crowell?
Enormous influence. Lyle Lovett says he would not have a career without Guy as Guy was passing Lyle’s songs around Nashville before they even met. It was Guy who first talked to Tony Brown at MCA about signing Lyle. Rodney and Steve were in the salon with Guy from the early 1970s on. Both talk extensively in the film about Guy’s influence on them. Vince Gill, Emmylou Harris, and younger artists including Chris Stapleton, Andrew Combs, Sarah Jarosz have also been influenced by Guy. Actually, too many songwriters to count have told me that Guy has been the high watermark for them.
Is your film aimed primarily at Guy Clark fans or do you hope to reach a wider audience?
Our film is aimed primarily at Guy fans. However, it is a story of friendship, music, art, and grief, and I think anyone who sees it will be pulled in by the extraordinary story.
